Transcript

[00:00:00] Julian Bleecker: Yeah. I’m really, I’m fascinated to understand well, you know, who you are, but, but, and, and also specifically like the.

[00:00:09] Um, the relationship between design and disillusion, I mean, it immediately resonated with me.

[00:00:14] I think, and I think it will resonate with, with, uh, anyone who kind of comes across it, um, where that, where that came from for you and also thinking into the future, what, what worlds does it lead into? If we, we start with the assumption like that, we want to, we, we, we, we imagined, I, at least I did, I think a lot of people do imagine that design is the way in which you translate a kind of dream into a more habitable moment, a more habitable world, something that it feels like, you know, what, what else could possibly be the reason for, um, you know, this material making practice that we call design, what else would it be here for, if not to, you know, Make the world a more habitable place, generally

[00:01:10] Silvio Lorusso: Okay.

[00:01:11] Okay, well, let me, uh, maybe, maybe let’s, uh, let’s try to approach this, uh, this question, which is like, you know, the book question, more like the underlining uh, uh, feeling that drives the book, uh, to split it first with a sort of, uh, answer about where myself I come from, so that might give you a bit of a sense of where I’m coming from.

[00:01:34] Uh, a, a perspective on this. Um, I am, uh, trained as a, I studied industrial design, then graphic design, and I see my, uh, let’s say my, my development, my practice now what we call practice as a, uh, as a sort of, uh, uh, increasing abstraction. Not because I went like from, yeah. uh, material thing, very concrete, tangible things to, uh, then graphic design to coding and, uh, in the end to, to theory, to history, theory and criticism.

[00:02:09] So I see this, um, uh, this, this, this, uh, sort of detachment from, um, like let’s say a physical. Uh, practice. Um, and, uh, I see this personal path, uh, also a bit in line with some of, uh, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the tendencies of, of design as a field.

[00:02:33] Of course, it’s hard here to generalize, uh, but, uh, in certain context, and I think you, you might agree, uh, you might have felt, um, a sense of, of, um, yeah.

[00:02:46] Ification of, of the field, um, in the sense that, um, uh, a lot of the practices that are there, let’s say, to imagine the future, to think the future to, uh, and therefore like to invent it, you know, as, as a long case, um, uh, uh. I’ve lost somehow a sort of hook on, like, material practice, I’ve become to a certain extent commentaries on, on, on reality.

[00:03:19] And that is somehow what I think is like the, the, the, the red thread on, uh, about, uh, let’s say, uh, of that leads, that drives the book, a certain distance, uh, from a sense of. control of organization of, of, of reality.

[00:03:39] Uh, and I call this in the book, um, sort of the, the problem of access to problems in the sense that one of the promises of design was that you would have like as a designer, uh, a role.

[00:03:55] In the, in the, in the rooms in which like the discussion on even how to frame the problems happen. Um, so the feeling, I think the, the, the widespread feeling is that, uh, that there is no access to those, uh, rooms, to this space, broadly speaking also due to, uh, uh, let’s say, uh, a widening of the field of like growth of, uh, programs, et cetera.

[00:04:21] So what is the response to this?

[00:04:24] Julian Bleecker: I just ask you, can you, when you say the growth of the field, do you mean like design kind of being attached to lots of different, the, the idiom, the word being attached to a lot of different things like service design or

[00:04:37] Silvio Lorusso: well, I mean it in two ways, uh, like let’s say a popularization of the, of the term design in, uh, let’s say mass culture now after Steve

[00:04:46] Julian Bleecker: Yeah.

[00:04:47] Silvio Lorusso: and, uh, but in a more like let’s say pragmatic and systemic way as a growth of, uh, of, of, of the courses of design of like the, the, the, the pedagogical context. in which design is taught and, uh, uh, let’s say transmitted as a, as a culture.

[00:05:05] Um, so, uh, you know, this kind of, uh, detachment that, uh, is, is driven somehow by, uh, like this kind of difficulty of access leaves you somehow floating. Uh, and the only thing you can do is like to tell yourself, uh, that what you are doing is like looking at society from, uh, uh, from the distance that you are actually thrown into.

[00:05:33] And that distance is, uh, the sort of, uh, let’s say melancholic commentary on society. That’s why, uh, like melancholia is very present on design because like, uh, there’s like this loss of, uh, It speaks of melancholia as a, uh, like floating above thing, like this kind of, uh, you know, detachment. And I feel like many designers have this feeling, uh, today.

[00:06:06] Julian Bleecker: Fascinating. Kind of, um, or late. Well, so much. So I don’t want to make this about me, but I think the conversation is interesting. So if we were,

[00:06:18] Silvio Lorusso: Let’s please do.

[00:06:19] Julian Bleecker: Yeah, let’s let’s pretend we’re sitting in that just having a coffee and we’ve, we’ve just met, uh, where are you by the way? Um, geographically.

[00:06:25] Silvio Lorusso: Uh, I’m in Lisbon in Portugal, but I’m Italian. Yeah.

[00:06:29] Julian Bleecker: Yeah. Beautiful.

[00:06:30] Um, so I, I’ve got, I think about this all the time and it does give me a feeling of like, of aspiration as well as melancholy and confusion.

[00:06:41] So two degrees in engineering, electrical engineering, and then what they called, uh, industrial engineering before they started it. They just, you know, they changed the, um, became more explicitly kind of, um, HCI, computer human interaction kind of stuff. And then I got a PhD in history of consciousness. So, and, and, um, I don’t think I knew this at the time.

[00:07:08] It was more an opportunity to study with someone who I really wanted to study with, um, as a, as an advisor, to be a mentoree. but I think when I was trying to figure out, like, why did you, why that?

[00:07:21] And I think it’s because I wanted to better understand how to Be a, a more expansive maker of things, engineer.

[00:07:29] So I didn’t the utility function of engineering, which I adore. I mean, I, I enjoy it. I mean, like, I, I’m, I, I program stuff. Like a lot of the things that I build for, for myself, I build for myself for, for my, you know, for my, for my business. Um, I, I’m, I’m, I’m, you know, getting off of all the, trying my best where I can to get off of the, the various. Intermediating services. So now all my websites are kind of, you know, hand built more or less, but just using open source systems, like your Linux guys, you’ll kind of appreciate this. Um, and so I, so I love it. I love its potential and its capabilities. I feel that I, let me say, I love it. It’s like, oh my gosh, this is like having a, you know, like a, like a, uh, uh, like.

[00:08:21] machine shop at my disposal to make the things that I want to, that I imagine. And, and it’s not always imagining them for their commercial value or their transactional value. It’s the, the love and joy and satisfaction of, of the craft. I guess if you want to, you know, bring in a term that kind of makes people kind of melt a little bit, you know, it makes them feel like, Ooh, touching.

[00:08:43] You sort of imagine like, Calloused hands at work in a wood shop, like that brings all that vibe in the bricolage of systems that are kind of like barely holding themselves together, but they work like, you know, you’d early just earlier. Okay. Firefox. No, you know, it’s not like you’re sitting there with a zoom client, um, and, and cursing some.

[00:09:04] Anonymous engineer in in Mumbai, who’s like, you know, on the on the third floor. It’s just like, I don’t really care about this so much. So it doesn’t work. Oh, well, we’ll put it in and maybe it’ll bubble up in the in the pull requests. Um,

[00:09:21] Silvio Lorusso: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:09:22] Julian Bleecker: so why am I saying all that? I’m saying all that because I feel a certain I mean, you know, a kinship to the to the spirit and sensibility and also wondering. Um, just as a provocation, what, what, how do I, you, the title of the book is What Design Can’t Do. What can’t it do or what can we do to bring in an alignment with, with these, you know, the, I guess the spirit of let’s make the assumption that more people don’t want to make the world worse. I mean, I think some people think they’re making it better, but maybe they are making it worse.

[00:10:00] I don’t know how to characterize this, but how do we, how do we fix this? How do we ignite a renaissance? So that what was lost is now regained or renewed or reinvigorated or evolved. I, it’s

[00:10:16] Silvio Lorusso: uh, well,

[00:10:17] Julian Bleecker: I don’t expect that there’s a bad answer.

[00:10:20] Silvio Lorusso: but, uh, I think, um, well, I mean, maybe it’s good also to, to say a bit where like this title come from, because it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s again, like a sort of personal story. Uh, I probably, uh, you know, like this kind of big initiative called what design can do. It’s a Dutch, uh, sort of initiative to, to, to, to apply design to social, like the big issues of our time in scare quotes.

[00:10:49] Uh, so every, every year, uh, they would launch, uh, a challenge, uh, to, uh, address. one of these big issues, the refugee challenge, the climate challenge, and so on. Um, the, my title is not really a direct response to that, uh, but it is a direct response to the rhetoric of that event, uh, and, uh, much of design culture.

[00:11:17] Um, so, um, the point is that what creates, uh, let’s say the negative, uh, sad feeling is not so much, um, like the actual practice of design, the actual praxis even, but really the kind of expectations that are constructed, uh, within, like, through that rhetorical statement. And once again, it’s a form of abstractions because, uh, a form of abstraction because they are statements, you know, it’s like, you know, like, You know, it’s, it’s language.

[00:11:51] So, uh, it’s not that the opposite of, uh, what design can do is like what design can do is like what design does because design, like, uh, like designers, I prefer also like this kind of, uh, uh, materialization or personification of it. Um, act in the world. The point is not too much to really at this point to, to rethink the role, but really to look it into the, uh, into its daily existence.

[00:12:23] And that’s a bit like the proposal of the book. So, um, when I speak of Uh, designers I propose, uh, like my, my, my provocation is to speak of like what I call like the everyday design, the everyday designer has both, uh, like cultural, uh, change, uh, change making, uh, aspiration, but also. Is like sort of, um, stuck in a sort of, uh, uh, uh, like mundane, trivial reality, like Bezier curves, uh, or like zoom that doesn’t work, this kind of thing.

[00:12:59] So, um, like by bringing this to the, to the, uh, you know, like to, to, to, to view, like to bring this to, to, to something that can be perceived, um, allows also to find some, uh, um, Like to redefine design through and to expand also the, uh, what we we call, uh, design nowadays, uh, because this kind of, um, um, let’s say, uh, um, uh, let’s say, uh, trivial pursuit, like trivial aspects of, uh, uh, designers are also what actually shape their project.

[00:13:37] They shape their attitude, they shape the limits of what they do. I see this very clearly, for example, in the effects of, uh, uh, Uh, like the, the, the development of cities now where like very often designers are like, sort of, uh, there, there is a, an abundance of design. So rent goes up, um, uh, the studios shrink, uh, the, the, the.

[00:14:02] et cetera, et cetera. So, so the work is also shaped by, by this in terms of, uh, the outcomes, the ways in which it’s performed and so on and so forth. Um, so it’s like to say it very simply, like the answer to what design can do, like the opposite is not, um, uh, a new manifesto for what design should be, but really a realist, again, in quotes, uh, understanding of what design can do.

[00:14:31] currently is, who are the actors in, in this game on a very broad level, uh, like emergent students, not, not the stars, so to speak. Um,

[00:14:44] Julian Bleecker: Yeah. But how do you think we got to this? The condition that you’re describing. I mean, so you mentioned, you mentioned, I actually wasn’t familiar with the, the, um, the, that moment you described where in, uh, I guess in the Netherlands where the question was raised. So I’m not, I’m not familiar with that.

[00:15:04] I’m wondering maybe, yeah. What, what got us to this point? Um, aside from you, what got you to the point where you’re like, I want to write about this. I want to reflect on this sense that I have with prose.

[00:15:23] Silvio Lorusso: Uh, well, uh, I mean, there is like a sort of structural historical, uh, perspective, which I tried to, to, to sketch, uh, in, in the book. I think like, um, the, the, the, the, the moment, uh, in which I, There is this kind of rhetoric around design, becomes like very present and very, uh, much shaping, uh, of, of, uh, let’s say of the field and the expectation of the field reaches its climax.

[00:15:57] Uh, uh, I think with, with, uh, in the moment in which let’s say, let’s say, uh, in, in, in the eighties and nineties and, you know, uh, reaches the peak with, uh, uh, with Apple, basically Apple becomes, uh, um, it’s like the moment in which design connected to other terms that are. Uh, somehow, uh, charged with almost an intentionality, such as creativity and, and then innovation, start to, to become pictured, uh, as, um, forces in themselves and not only, um, uh, forces for the better, but economic forces, like the creativity is not just a feature of the individual at the time.

[00:16:44] It was like a way to rejuvenate the individual. Cities to reinvent cities, same with, uh, with innovation. So there was like a very strong, uh, maybe unconscious, partially conscious, uh, socioeconomic, uh, project, uh, that took design. And, um, I have, uh, among my books, uh, uh, there are like a few books of the period and one comes from a marketing expert called, uh, Tom Peters.

[00:17:13] Now, uh, it has like this crazy book, which, which you open. It is a sort of a ish book. It’s like very illustrated. It’s crazy. And you open the first page and it’s written, I’m mad as El . And, uh, it, it basically proposes design as this kind of, uh, lifestyle changing, uh, thing that, uh, destroy no, that it produces the so-called creative, uh, destruction.

[00:17:41] No, another very central. figure in this, uh, uh, idea of, of, of creative destruction was at a similar time was Bruce Mapp, Canadian designer, uh, who, uh, created this project called Massive Change, no? And there, like, there was like the biggest, like the clearest manifestation of a sort of confusion between design as a force.

[00:18:09] Like as a sort of autonomous force in history, a bit like, uh, uh, modernity or capitalism nowadays and the activity of design, like the actors at play. So, uh, this kind of merging of these two understanding of what design is created this big sort of sense of. dissociation. So it is design itself that changes the world in a semi autonomous way, or there is like an actor or a set of actors that can be somehow able to shape it.

[00:18:47] In a way, like history is sort of proving that these actors are not so much protagonists, but like themselves, you know. carried out by this force. And yeah, this is like the realization of the post innovation, the post Apple, the post now, uh, uh, era in which we live. Nobody is sort of, uh, sort of, uh, uh, goes to, um, uh, Apple, um, uh, launch and finds it like as the same messianic, uh, uh, of like 20 years or 30 years ago.

[00:19:27] No.

[00:19:29] Julian Bleecker: They do they, you’re saying they do not.

[00:19:32] Silvio Lorusso: Not, not as much as before. No. I mean, of course there are like the apple, but of course it’s like, I mean if you look at, uh, the way that Google, for example, also lost a bit of, uh, shininess in front of the public, um, and all the big companies, um, now, uh, have lost a bit of that aura. Uh, it’s clear that this faith in a, in a sort of, uh, big, in, in, in the possibility of, of having like this big revolutionary project through design renovation, uh, has, uh, lost, uh, lost momentum.

[00:20:14] And again, this has effects in economical terms. We have seen, uh, the, the, the, the, uh, the lay, the, the id ideal. That, uh, sort of, uh, sort of closed, uh, big part of its, uh, office. Google laid off a lot of the staff and so on and so forth.

[00:20:32] Julian Bleecker: Yeah. What, so, so these are things that are, they, they, uh, yeah. So is there, is there, are there the reflections on that, on this, this, this book? You know, moment over, over years. Um, this, this, this inflection where, uh, there was, there was that sense. Maybe you felt as well. I certainly felt it as like, as an engineer and also like, you know, somewhat adjacent closely adjacent to that world. I mean, I, I grew up my, the first computer I ever saw was, was aside from the one in the, in the, uh, huge, uh, mainframe room at the university that was in my town was an Apple II.

[00:21:24] Sense of like, absolute awe. And then, and then, you know, spending after school going directly with my friends to the one friend who had one to sit there with, you know, with five inch floppy disks and load a computer game

[00:21:39] Silvio Lorusso: Yeah.

[00:21:40] Julian Bleecker: that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, Feeling was, is knitted into the fabric of my consciousness, the beige, the square color monitor that his dad got him from the, the lab that he worked at.

[00:21:53] That was, it was color. It was color. See a computer represent itself in color was like

[00:21:59] Silvio Lorusso: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:00] Julian Bleecker: mind blowing and, and it, it, it, it becomes part of your DNA at that particular moment, you know, in the, in the, um, in the eighties. And so you carry that with you and then you, you know, then there’s, then there’s, there’s Apple and everything that it represented at that moment.

[00:22:16] Um, it will always stay so tightly knit to that. So even, you know, even today, it brings a sense of, I don’t know, maybe it’s nostalgia now, but it’s not a nostalgia. That’s kind of like, eh, you know, that’s how it was back in the day, back when we used to ride horses or whatever. It’s not like, it’s not a dismissive one.

[00:22:37] It’s still a few layers deep where you want it to be what it was. One wants it to be what it was. Um, and maybe, maybe that’s a, there’s a note of melancholy because then you look at it and in the same moment, your mind switches to like, um, you know, walking the dog, listening to a podcast about, about, you know, an AI announcement, open AI announcement, everyone’s listening to all this stuff and you’re like, oh man, Apple is so screwed.

[00:23:06] They’re so behind the ball on this. They’re, they’re going, this is, this is that moment, you know, you make those kinds of assessments, which are not meant to be. Dismissive of what it is, but it’s coming from a place of man. Well, what do we, what can we rely upon in the same way that I felt the aspiration and ambition and sense of hope and like, wow, this is a future.

[00:23:27] I can see myself going into this future because here I am a high school kid playing, you know, playing with computers and learning to program. This is the world going forward. I will contribute to making the future. Not even a question. This is gonna happen. And now, you know, I talked to, you know, in a, in a lightweight kind of mentor, emerging practitioners, some actually mid career people, um, you know, people are like, you’re my peer.

[00:23:52] Why are you feeling a sense of melancholy? And we can talk about it, uh, to, to the degree where we’re like, I thought that this was an opportunity to do things to, in a way, to make the world a more habitable place and, you know, and make a living doing it. Are you kidding me? This is great. This is let’s go.

[00:24:14] And now McKinsey came in the room, right. And said, Hey, you, you, you, and you, sorry, you’re not contributing 4 percent year on year to the ad revenue. You got to go you over there. I see you running away. No, no, no, no. You got to go.

[00:24:29] Silvio Lorusso: Yeah.

[00:24:30] Julian Bleecker: was, there was that, there was a profound sense of like on we and dread and frankly, confusion.

[00:24:36] That is a form of. You know, fear that leads to anger, to people being upset about what’s going on. How dare

[00:24:43] Silvio Lorusso: Right. Yeah.

[00:24:46] Julian Bleecker: uh, I’m out of here. A lot there. It was just, it was just, I’m trying to, you know, I’m trying to reflect and associate what I’ve heard and experienced directly and indirectly over the last, you know, few years.

[00:25:01] And I don’t think it was just COVID, you know, the pandemic. I don’t think it was

[00:25:04] Silvio Lorusso: No, no, for sure. No.

[00:25:08] Uh, I mean, uh, how, how can I. Frame this like, I mean, I think, of course, here we have like some like the generational aspect of, uh, your work, my work, and especially the book. I mean, for me, it was really, uh, somehow important, uh, to simply. You know, put the, the, this sort of tragic fact on paper that that era is over.

[00:25:40] No, it’s like, it was important to point it out and to insist, and I insist a lot on this that, uh, you know, speaking of changing the world and so on and so forth, would have. like the opposite effect because nobody would believe it. So you would create more of more disillusionment to use by, by, uh, exactly by, by, uh, pumping up a rhetoric that is not anymore of the time now.

[00:26:12] So this was like the important point, the sense of skeptic, like to capture, uh, uh, and to, to describe as, as, uh, as good as I could, um, the, the sense of skepticism that, uh, is, uh, nowadays like tangible in, in the rooms of, of, of like, uh, uh, of, uh, conference of design culture, et cetera. Um, so to, to, to basically show the mechanism of, uh, expectations, that creates a sort of rage, a sort of resentment, um, you know, it’s like you cannot go to a room of especially millennials, I’m a millennial, so I’m like in the worst position, uh, when I say of me, I say like millennials in general, because, um, we, we know that feeling of awe.

[00:27:05] We know it secondhand, to be honest. I mean, I know that sense of awe of Apple II, Apple Lisa, et cetera, but through Out and Catch Fire, you know, like through the series, through the books, I didn’t feel it myself. Um, but at the same time, throughout our, like, formation, we, we didn’t have, Like it was already the long tail of Rev Revolutionary, uh, dreams of, of world chain.

[00:27:35] Uh, and, and now, um, like people of my age are, uh, already, you know, they’re not young. anymore. So you are like in this sort of limbo of aspiration, no? So you’re like sort of stuck in a, uh, in, in a nostalgia for a time that you didn’t live and a present that doesn’t even belong anymore to you. Because you are like, already like, uh, not the last generation.

[00:28:06] So, uh, this is like, also, this book, this work, is my homage, my tribute, to my generation of, uh, of, of, of, uh, designers, design practitioners, design lovers, design haters. Um, yeah. So this explains the sense of Du Bois, just like, uh, explain this kind of tragedy that we are discussing now, and also explain it to older people that still like, um, insist on, uh, on like, that they still like push that, that dream, no, like without sensing the room.

[00:28:44] Uh, it’s a dream that. doesn’t match the, the, the, the, the, the sentiment, the zeitgeist, the spirit of the time. That’s why the book, I think, resonated with a lot of, uh, with several people now.

[00:28:59] Julian Bleecker: Yeah, um, the what I’m what I’m seeing is, uh, the gap between the disconnect. I don’t know. I’ve been thinking just this morning specifically. I mean, started, uh, hearing about it.

[00:29:19] And last night, literally, the, it might sound trivial, but I think, I think it’s a, I think it’s a, a symptom of what you’re describing is the, um, this gap between, I’m going to bring it right down to the ground, the gap between, uh, what open AI and Sam Altman did with Scarlett Johansson’s voice.

[00:29:43] And. Like, that’s, I look at him just like, how could you, the audacity that, and in a sense of, you know, when you’re saying that there’s this, there’s, you know, so much you’re describing like a disconnect between, I mean, I can, I can see a kind of Sam, Sam Altman, you know, collective open AI consciousness mindset or whatever, being like, no, we’re just going to do this because that, that movie, her, that’s what we’re trying to build and everyone’s going to love it.

[00:30:10] And just be like, We watched two different movies, didn’t we? It must have been two different movies. Because when I sat and watched it, beautiful film, Spike Jonze nails it, you know, whole thing. You want to be like, hey, I’ll do anything to be part of your art department. You guys must have so much fun just kind of putting these things together and all that stuff.

[00:30:29] Beautiful, beautiful film. And also I got your story. I got the message. Boy, it just really hit me over the head now. You’re right. We don’t want that world. And the same thing with let’s call it. Let’s, you know, expand this money. It’s like, uh, I read, you know, Neal Stephenson snow crash. What? 25 years ago, maybe, maybe it was even longer.

[00:30:47] I don’t know whenever it came out. Um, and I was like, yeah, beautiful. I get this world that you’re creating, man. What? You got a vivid way of translating the things that you see in your head. Yeah. Onto the page. Amazing. Amazing. No, I don’t want that world. And thank you for describing it in such a way. So I know that here’s a map of a future and let’s avoid that territory.

[00:31:12] Let’s all get together and just figure out. And then, then this motherfucker named his company after,

[00:31:18] Silvio Lorusso: Yeah.

[00:31:19] Julian Bleecker: you know, and you’re just like, are you not of this world? What world are you walking in? I do not want to live in your dream, but I thought you were meant to be dreaming the kinds of. Worlds that I wanted to be a part of.

[00:31:31] That’s what I thought from the beginning. You know, maybe I didn’t think from the beginning with Facebook necessarily, but certainly, you know, that that was a sense. That’s why I would want to participate as a designer engineer, you know, social scientists, whatever in the work that you’re doing, because I want to help construct the dream that you’re telling me about. Maybe, maybe Apple’s the only good example from the, the earlier, I don’t even know what, what point in time, but I, I felt the dream for sure. I’m, you know, I homebrew computers. Yes. Let’s do it. That sounds great.

[00:32:07] And then, then something happens. There’s, there’s a. There’s a shift. I don’t think it always happens and I don’t think it’s necessary that it happens.

[00:32:14] I think it’s just the conditions are such that, I don’t know, the dream has that point in some dreams where it’s like, okay, we’re in act three of the dream now and it’s not looking like it was in the beginning.

[00:32:30] Silvio Lorusso: Yeah. I mean, I mean, now that we are speaking of, uh, of, uh, open AI or this like, um, uh, of, of science fiction, my feeling again, like, Uh, if we bring it down to the daily life, no, to the daily routine, my sense is that in relationship to imagination, you know, this category that is obviously very dear to you.

[00:32:59] Um, my feeling is that we, we prefer at this point to love, to love the catastrophe, to love the dystopia. Why? Simply because it’s more interesting than, uh, like yet another, uh, demo that is super surprising, but in the end, you know, doesn’t, you know, Move us. No, I mean, it’s, uh, it’s, uh, I think, uh, it’s without any, um, it’s like, you, you, you cannot not agree that, uh, like the release of, uh, say Sora a few days ago was like, it’s shocking to see, you know, but you know, it’s like, it’s not that, uh, that creates the sort of, uh, radical imagination that, uh, moves the masses.

[00:33:53] And therefore, like a lot of, um, uh, design work, which is a commentary on, uh, on, uh, the, but not only that also like films, it’s like dystopia because at least dystopia moves something in us, not make us feel something is happening. That’s why like people are attracted to the idea of collapse. No, uh, and therefore like maybe maybe you can say this.

[00:34:23] I don’t know. This is not the book.

[00:34:24] So I like just to be clear Um, but maybe um, you know, like the real strong like radical hard imagination is more in uh, uh in mad max that uh in in the launch of Uh, of, uh, of Google now in like, like the, the, the, the demo of Google nowadays. And I think we have to take this, uh, uh, very, uh, uh, very, very seriously.

[00:34:52] So what is that? What is that moves the masses nowadays in terms of, uh, what, what you, what you think at night now, what you dream like later, earlier at now. What, what keeps. You know, spinning in your ad. I don’t know if it’s Sora, I don’t know if it’s uh, you know, yet another feature, but I think like Doune, yes, there is something there.

[00:35:15] Now, I dunno, maybe, maybe, maybe I’m wrong here, but for sure there is something that, there is something that, uh, you know, activates you. It is like. There, it should be, it must be somewhere, but where is it? Maybe it’s not anymore in technology, maybe it’s not anymore in companies, no?

[00:35:38] Julian Bleecker: So I guess the question is what, what do you, you know, what do you think personally it is in if, if it, if it is at all.

[00:35:48] Silvio Lorusso: Well, I mean, uh, something I started to say, uh, of course it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an ill formulated thought, but, uh, I’m getting there. Uh, it’s something like this. Uh, I, I, like the, the, the, the, the, the, the one liner version is this. What, what you, what you call the future is not future. It’s like the present. All the four, uh, four costs, four sides, uh, uh, uh, like let’s say scenarios, all of this, you call it the future.

[00:36:18] You call it, uh, but it’s actually more of the present. So. Because, like, it’s more of the same to a certain extent. The very idea of, uh, predicting the future, anticipating the future, shaping the future, is yet another modality of the present. So if that’s the case, where do you find the, uh, let’s say, refuge and consolation?

[00:36:43] So I became, might sound conservative, I became like a very big fan of the, of the, of the past. And I’m particularly inspired lately by the figure of William Morris, to speak of, like, What fascinates me of, of, of William Morris in terms of, uh, uh, of like this, this, uh, issue here, uh, is that he has, um, a complex relationship between past, uh, and future in his own time, in his own life, basically.

[00:37:15] William Morris is a person that spans, uh, the first half of his life, uh, dreaming of the Middle Ages. writing this terrible, like, poetry with knights and a bit like Game of Thrones, no? Uh, romantic, no? In a very classical sense. So you might call it a reactionary, someone, you know, a conservative, even. And yet, all that work, like this dreaming of the past, leads him to do the most futuristic thing that could be imagined at the time, to call himself Uh, a socialist and to become, you know, like an activist at, uh, when he was 50 years old.

[00:38:00] And this we are speaking of the, uh, last century. So it was like, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a different age now. Um, so the, that idea of the, the, the, the past, you know, that, that focus on a sort of a romanticized past really gave a big boost. To really create something innovative to use a bad, uh, you know, like, uh, to, to simplify.

[00:38:25] So like, my question is like, what kind of past. I really want to dream in order to jump completely to what could be called real future because you know, to call yourself socialist at the time was really a radical thing. There were like a bunch of socialists. Uh, you know, nobody had read Marx. Marx wasn’t translated to English.

[00:38:48] No. Um, so this story to me is really, is really fascinating. I’m thinking of that. What, what is the interesting path? What is a path that, uh, uh, moves me? Uh, and these days I found it there.

[00:39:02] Julian Bleecker: Hmm. Just as a, as a counterpoint, um, I, I guess in my mind, I kind of anticipated you might say something different, not, not to say that something wrong with when I, when I was saying that, when I was

[00:39:20] Silvio Lorusso: Yeah,

[00:39:20] Julian Bleecker: the question, I, I started, um, there was something that the, whether or not in the, in the instrumental characteristics of what I’m going to describe is, you know, whatever one might feel about it, but.

[00:39:39] I felt something going on that, that felt like a familiar energy for hope and possibility in the, you know, in the crypto vibes. in the, in the, in the kind of community formation aspects of it, more than the, you know, the extractive kind of mechanisms for, but it was at, at the fore, what, at the, at the core, what I sensed and what I saw was a new mechanism for value creation and circulation and, and value, not just in financial terms.

[00:40:13] Value in a sense of like I value what you do and now I’ve got a mechanic and a mechanism for for associating with you and not even just by by sending you some, you know, some ether, whatever, but it’s more like we’re community and I was involved in some some projects where I. You know, just to, just to say like, I didn’t benefit financially whatsoever.

[00:40:37] Matter of fact, I contributed, uh, you know, time and energy engineering and, and that kind of stuff because I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. Look at what’s going on. I, I’m adoring this kind of like community vibe. And there was one, it was this story I haven’t thought about in a long time, but there’s one Dao that I was a part of when they were launching their project.

[00:40:54] You know, I’m just grinding, trying to help, you know, create code and, and, and working, you know, just really crappy, kind of like spreadsheets to kind of. coordinate activities and, uh, even, even finding a friend who I knew who lived in Mongolia to try to figure out how we could connect to their financial system, like bonkers stuff.

[00:41:14] Um, and I was talking to this, this one, uh, one woman, you know, we would, we would, uh, we would sometimes get on a, on a, uh, voice chat on discord and that kind of thing. It turns out it wasn’t a woman. It was like a 13 year old kid on the other side. And I was just like, man, oh man, this is amazing. Just the energy and the kind of, and you know, you also think, well, people, part of people’s energy is for, you know, financial gain has to be that, you know, at some level there’s thinking that, but they’re also like on this wave of enthusiasm for creating a thing that it felt very much.

[00:41:50] I’m cobbling this to, you know, we’re cobbling this together. There were no existing stacks. To build upon, if you know what I mean, there was nothing. So I, you know, part of me was like, was that an inflection point? And I’ve seen that, I’ve seen that same, I don’t know, you know, what are the kids say? I seen that same vibe exhibit itself in, in other different ways.

[00:42:12] So there’s this, uh, this project, um, metal label. I don’t know if you’ve heard about it. It’s, it’s,

[00:42:18] Silvio Lorusso: I don’t know it. No.

[00:42:19] Julian Bleecker: you know, confusing kind of bewildering, but spirit of, um, The name is derived from one of the founders. The founders was one of the original founders of kickstarter. So he’s got that kind of like self starting, kind of like let’s create platforms for the individual creator kind of thing, which I think a lot of people could.

[00:42:43] Oh, man, that’s that’s amazing. His, uh, the underpinnings for all that was from it. You know, he tells the story about his experiences as he as a young fella with independent record labels. And so as soon as you start saying that, it’s like, Oh, okay. I kinda, I kinda get where you’re

[00:42:58] Silvio Lorusso: Yeah. I get it. Yeah.

[00:43:00] Julian Bleecker: Um, anyway, you know, I guess part of me is like, is sensing that, you know, is it, is it too much to say that we’re at the, at the, at the early moment of a, of a renaissance

[00:43:23] Silvio Lorusso: I mean,

[00:43:23] Julian Bleecker: might, that we, we might, we might not, we not, it might be such an expansive thing that it might be like, okay, well, so when does it start tomorrow? Where do I go? You know, it just might be like the re the reaction to the disillusionment.

[00:43:37] is going to be quite a bit of despair and melancholy. And you’ll get a few people who are like, follow me. There’s something new over here. We’re going to build it.

[00:43:47] Silvio Lorusso: And that, uh, and, and those people will, will, will be, uh, ostracized. I mean, I mean, the case of, uh, of crypto, it’s an interesting one to me. I also, uh, did not much, uh, with I, I did like. a couple, like one project, one big project on NFTs with, you know, the art communities. Um, and, uh, I thought, uh, at the time that many of, uh, uh, of like the arguments, uh, against like, let’s say, uh, NFT art, whatever that means, were a bit, uh, a bit snobbish.

[00:44:26] Julian Bleecker: Hmm.

[00:44:27] Silvio Lorusso: You know, it’s like many people were like saying that, uh, that people doing crypto art was just like, you know, generative art, so formality. It wasn’t critical. And I really, I was really upset at this kind of criticism because it showed like a sort of, uh. Uh, uh, snobbery, uh, and also a misunderstanding of, uh, uh, of like, uh, uh, media art, not the history of media art, like plenty of, uh, uh, generative art that is super interesting, but maybe it’s like, if you cannot make the distinction between like, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, processing, uh, processing, like quick sketch made in two minutes, and a very complex, very interesting, uh, uh, other process to it.

[00:45:14] It’s like, it’s more on you than on the, on the art. And there was like an economic aspect that really annoyed me. There was like, um, uh, like some people, like a new, a new, uh, group of people was actually making money. Money that before was like unthinkable. I’m not speaking of like the, the big speculator, but there was like a group.

[00:45:38] that a group of artists, uh, uh, decent artists that were like finally making art with digital artifacts. And what, what was the reaction was saying like, ah, these people like they are so transactional. It’s so focused on the money. And that’s part of the, uh, the kind of Disillusion that has like a negative effect because like you say, it’s like killing the present, killing the vibe with more semi moralist, uh, moralizing arguments.

[00:46:13] Don’t you think that people, uh, need to make money? Don’t you think that people lead money to make art. Or you want to live in this idealist world in which, like, art should be free and is a martyrdom for the artist. Um, so yeah, I sensed a bit of that kind of energy and vitality in that, uh, uh, in that scene.

[00:46:40] Um, and so in general, so to speak, uh, it’s like, it’s, it’s really hard To, uh, be able not to project, uh, you know, our own guilty feelings on, on different scenes. And, um, it’s like, let’s say my effort is like to, um, compress, like make a zip file of all the actual disillusionment to explain it in order to, um, sort of, uh, uh, you know, Making it out of me so that I can look at other phenomenon without, uh, without uh, you know, having like the glasses of disillusion.

[00:47:21] Uh, so it’s a way of freeing myself, freeing out because if you don’t do it, it’s gonna be a sort of a return of the repressed that’s gonna shape the way in which you see reality. But if you give it form. Then you are somehow more, more, more like you have more maneuver to look at, you know, energy vitality, not through the lens of melancholia.

[00:47:44] So this was a bit, uh, uh, my effort. So in fact, I’m a very cheerful person in, in, in, in normal life. But when I write, I wanted to, you know, uh, in this book, I wanted to drop it all because, uh, that was needed. That is needed.

[00:48:01] Julian Bleecker: Yeah. Yeah. That’s amazing. It’s quite a thing, I have to say, and um, I appreciate being like a, like a very visual guy. The last book I did was like, it was, I started writing it, um, prose, right? I, I, so I’d given a talk and the talk was, here’s an image, and now, you know, basically to, to kind of, I don’t know, whatever images do when you’re giving like a keynote talk, it’s kind of something to look at.

[00:48:33] To look at and set a mood and that kind of thing. And then I tried to write and the response was, was, was generous. And so I was like, I think I need to capture that and translate it into something that’s a little bit more portable. I love books. And so I was like, let me do a book. And I started writing it as prose.

[00:48:50] And I was like, ah, it was, it was hard. And I was like, what am I doing? It’s like, it’s all right there. In the, in the presentation. So I just turned the presentation to portrait mode, basically, and built and looked at the images and said, what would I. What does that mean? What does that say? And it actually became so I appreciate that that the I mean, the images are great.

[00:49:11] I just I just love their like these wonderful kind of, um, accents that, you know, they they augment in a way that, um, I kind of wish happened more. I don’t I’m not saying I mean, I got a PhD. So I like I like reading but but I also like I think Providing reminding ourselves that we, we can also see and sense and make sense of things through images directly, you know, alongside of the analytic is, uh, it’s wonderful.

[00:49:46] Silvio Lorusso: Nice.

[00:49:47] I’m really happy, happy to hear this also because like something many people ask me, uh, okay, uh, what some people have asked me, okay, the memes, you have like a lot of memes in the, uh, in, in the, in the book. Um, and, uh, you know, they say, okay, so, so this is like to lighten up the mood. I’m saying yes and no, because I take memes very seriously.

[00:50:11] For me, it’s like cultural artifact as important, as valuable as a film or as a, a video game. Uh, but the, the, the, the authentic way to experience a meme, it’s not like to, to do like theater, theater, aor No. Or like Umberto, right? Like the long analysis really to enjoy, to have fun with that. So it’s like there is this paradox to be serious.

[00:50:37] You have to be sort of, you know, uh, silly about it. Uh, and that’s what I try to, to do in the book and generally in my work. Uh, not to, to, to keep that sort of conviviality that allows for serious things to be said.

[00:50:52] Julian Bleecker: Yeah. It’s good stuff. Um, Hey, okay. So that was, that was great.

[00:50:57] Um, uh, I just need to do one thing. Could you just say your name and sort of introduce yourself? And sometimes I kind of cut those into the, the editor of the podcast.

[00:51:11] Silvio Lorusso: Okay. Uh, my name is Silvio Rorusso. I’m a designer, artist, and mostly, mostly writer these days. I’m based in Lisbon, and I recently wrote a book entitled What Design Can Do, essays on design and disillusion.

[00:51:30] Julian Bleecker: Awesome. Thank you.

[00:51:32] Silvio Lorusso: Is that good? I was, uh, afraid of doing that,

[00:51:36] Julian Bleecker: I, I get it.

[00:51:37] Silvio Lorusso: yeah.

[00:51:38] Julian Bleecker: Um, how, how has been, has the response been? I mean, I guess it came out like late last year, was it? Or mid, um, was it

[00:51:46] Silvio Lorusso: November. November.

[00:51:47] Julian Bleecker: Okay, yeah.

[00:51:48] Silvio Lorusso: Yeah. That’s been really way above expectations, I have to say. I thought it was, it would be a sort of niche book, but, uh, you know, the sales are good. Uh, now translation are gonna come out. Uh, You know, it’s like, uh, a lot of students write to me and say, ah, yeah, you captured, uh, like how I feel.

[00:52:09] You know? It’s like, it’s so me that that has been like, uh, uh, like the comment, I’m very happy, I’m very happy of, of the, of the response. Yeah.

[00:52:18] Julian Bleecker: Do the, do the students ask you, well, what should I do? You see, you seem to know a lot. What should I do?

[00:52:23] Silvio Lorusso: Uh, luckily not because like, I, I, I, I, I, what I say always say is like, you know, it’s like you shouldn’t trust. The, uh, the authority to tell you what to do. You should, uh, somehow, uh, you know, do exactly the opposite for the survivorship bias kind of, uh, kind of issue. So I never give like counts, like I never give suggestion in that sense.

[00:52:47] I can only say what I did.

[00:52:49] Julian Bleecker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Thank you.

[00:52:56] Silvio Lorusso: Julian was really a pleasure. You know, I mean, I didn’t have a chance to say, but, uh, you know, I’ve been, I knew that I knew near future love for many

[00:53:05] Julian Bleecker: Oh, wow. Oh, man. I didn’t, I had no idea. Oh my gosh. That’s

[00:53:09] Silvio Lorusso: course, of course, of course. I did an interview with Nicolas Novak back in the days. You know,

[00:53:15] Julian Bleecker: Okay. I had no idea. That’s really, that’s really gratifying. Well, um, I don’t know, you know, maybe sometime in the future, it’d be nice to just kind of connect, connect again. And I don’t know what for, but just to maintain the association and the, and the, and the, and the connection. Wow.

[00:53:33] Silvio Lorusso: I would love that. Yeah, yeah, no, it’s like you are no stranger to me. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, it’s like it’s many years, many years.

[00:53:40] Julian Bleecker: Oh, wow. Yeah. Maybe, I don’t know, maybe there’s some way at some point we kind of collaborate on something or get you involved in some projects. That could be cool.

[00:53:51] Silvio Lorusso: I would love that. I would love that. Anyway, I’m going to keep following. I saw that you published the manual not so long ago. When was it? Like last year? I

[00:54:01] Julian Bleecker: It was, uh, gosh, time. Um, it was, I guess it was 2022. And then

[00:54:08] Silvio Lorusso: What’s 2022?

[00:54:10] Julian Bleecker: yeah, the, the second printing, uh, was at the end of last year. Did, uh. Printing of, uh, favorite ones. And I’m a, I’m a publisher. Like I try to try to maintain, get, talk about getting off the stacks. It was like, I’m going to do this myself, which I,

[00:54:24] Silvio Lorusso: Oh, wow.

[00:54:25] Julian Bleecker: which is awesome.

[00:54:26] But also it’s like, uh, it’s like trying to run zoom on Linux. It’s supposed to work. It’s supposed to hold on a second. Let me just, Oh, there’s one driver. Yeah. Okay. Let me,

[00:54:40] Silvio Lorusso: Right, right. I, I mean, I bless all the publishers, like the people move the books, you know, take the books and disseminate. It’s like, you know, without them, nothing happens. They are like the true heroes of, uh, of this industry.

[00:54:55] Julian Bleecker: yeah. Amazing. Silvio. Thank you.

[00:55:00] Silvio Lorusso: Thanks. Thanks. We speak soon.

[00:55:01] Julian Bleecker: Okay. Take care, my friend.

[00:55:03] Silvio Lorusso: Have a good day. Ciao.

[00:55:04] Julian Bleecker: too. Bye.