Transcript of Episode 090

[00:00:00] Julian: This is episode 90 of the Near Future Laboratory podcast with me, Julian Bleeker, founder of the Near Future Laboratory. And before we get too far into this conversation I have with Kyle Ng, creative director and founder of Braindead, I want to answer a question. Maybe it’s more like a misunderstanding of really no major consequence, but I realized that there may be some confusion as to the composition of Near Future Laboratory.

[00:00:28] So NFL started as my blog in 2006. Over a few years, a few guys asked to join and so I, you know, agreed that it would be cool to jam together and we did that and it was cool. Then I started spending more and more time developing Near Future Laboratory, building the brand and what it meant and a following in the community with Patreon and the Discord and then of course this podcast now on episode 90.

[00:00:54] And then it reverted back in spirit and purpose to basically where Near Future Laboratory was, you know, now synonymous with me. in my practice and had not so much to do with those other guys. So, Near Future Laboratory is now, effectively, my commercial creative design art practice. That includes a large room that consists of a community of adjacent activities, centered largely in the Discord, the learning and development platforms I have, like General Seminar and Super Seminar, and all the stuff that you can join for the simple act of becoming a paid Patreon member.

[00:01:26] And if you sign up for an annual professional tier Patreon membership, you also get our four book design fiction set as a gift from me to you. And seeing as that set of books goes for, I think it’s 55 now retail, you’re basically getting two months of that Patreon membership for free. And you get access to the NFL discord, which is just a hummin with really top tier conversations.

[00:01:48] So head over to patreon. com slash in the year future laboratory. Now, I only say all this because in office hours on Friday, it was just, when was that? It was yesterday! It came up in a conversation, and I explained, because someone said, hey, what about those other guys? And so I said, no, no, actually, it’s just me now, has been effectively for a while, and I realized that when you’re on the other side of things, and you’re looking in, And you’ve had this long history, you know, kind of understanding of looking at near future laboratory.

[00:02:20] You don’t know that anything’s changed if no one tells you that things have changed. And it has changed. There’s no big deal, except that I realized if one person thought it was these five guys, then probably others did as well. That’s not the case. Next, I want to remind you, something’s coming up, that we’ve got this awesome event coming called Detroit Imagines Harder, this fall.

[00:02:41] And I want you to come. It’s going to be epic. It’s going to be like the event I produced back in 2013 that created the TBD catalog plus plus part hands on workshop part professional development with Jefferson Dinners on the topic of the future creative practice some fireside chats with some epic folks film festival music and more so head over to Detroit dot imagines harder dot com that’s Detroit dot imagines harder The PA told me to enunciate.

[00:03:17] And fill out that form there. That puts you on the application list. Lastly, I want to remind you that you can get all the design fiction books we’ve got over at shop. nearfuturelaboratory. com for one compact bundle price of only 55. That’s four books, plus these awesome electronic sheep training cards.

[00:03:37] You’ll want to know what that’s all about. All of that for only 55 delivered farm fresh right to your barn door. That works out to be 13. 75 per book, which is like, I mean, you can barely get a fried chicken sandwich for that nowadays, and these books will last way longer than that fried chicken sandwich.

[00:03:56] So head over right now to shop. neofuturelaboratory. com. Okay, enough of that. Here’s my conversation with my old friend, Kyle Lang, from Braindead. Enjoy the shit out of this chat.

[00:04:10] Kyle: Growing up, I think I’ve always had a sense of curiosity and just trying to like, understand that there’s so many different, diverse.

[00:04:19] Groups of people and things and hobbies and I really love the idea of kind of like Learning about each one and seeing people’s passions is the most important thing And I think that’s what inspires me. So when we do a project I always look at like What the most inspirational? Thing I can do that makes me feel really excited and I try to I say research it or kind of like Deep dive in with the company thing about you with like, even like Omada, it’s like Omada was like a product, right?

[00:04:54] Like at the end of the day, but like, it said a lot about who you were because it was like, you’re very tech. You’re very smart. You’re very, um, you know, if someone says like, Oh, I have this guy, friend, Julian Blaker, he’s super intelligent, really into technology and futurism. People will just think you’re making a bunch of like really smooth things, like, right?

[00:05:16] Like very smooth, minimal, like techie things. But then you made like almost like an analog looking, you know, bike tool. And I’m like, of course, that’s who he is because he’s always looking at how to like digress technology to not look technology in some form, you know what I mean? Or to like be playful with it.

[00:05:37] I’m like, And that’s what makes that product interesting is that has your identity built into it where like I’m like, oh, of course, that’s what it looks like, you know, like, oh, this is Bluetooth. You know, it’s not like you’re not selling the genre of technology. You are selling a product that represents the spirit of what innovation can be.

[00:05:56] You’re, you’re proposing questions. You know what I mean? Of like what things should be. Like when Rafa made the merino wool jerseys that blew them up because you didn’t have to be a crazy tech kit guy looking all smooth like a dolphin you could wear like merino wool jersey right because people wore merino wool jerseys and that built in people’s minds like I can envision my life envision who I can be wearing this jersey right because I don’t look like everyone else and I could stick out you know what I’m saying so it’s like That wasn’t a vision that made them very successful.

[00:06:36] And, you know, you obviously were very successful. And I think that’s the key where, um, the identity of. The thought is shown visibly, not only visibly, but in the brand and also execution that makes people feel the human quality of a product or a thing.

[00:06:56] Julian: That’s so encouraging. Thank you. Thank you for all that.

[00:06:59] Um,

[00:07:00] Kyle: it’s true. I mean,

[00:07:01] Julian: I know, I know you’re, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s just hearing it, I guess from, you know, like an old friend, it’s like, uh, it’s really nice to hear.

[00:07:09] Kyle: But I think the thing with new near future lab, I think that’s the thing that I’ve always been attracted to when I first met you was that. The questions you have about the future are things that are, um, kind of overlooked.

[00:07:22] Right. And like, when you talk about like, you, you know, propose the future of food and people be like, Oh, it’s insects or these things, you know, like it’s this and whatever. It’s like, yeah, it’s all of that. But I think the key is, is understanding like, what’s our relationship to this? What’s the real cultural thing?

[00:07:37] Like, what do people actually want? Did I mean like, who are we? And what’s my identity into the future?

[00:07:44] NO ONE: Fascinating.

[00:07:45] Kyle: Right. And I think that’s the key of it is like, like people are still eating McDonald’s all the time. Right. Or wrong. I don’t care. I mean, it’s funny, like my girlfriend’s like, you know, she’s like trying to not drink so much like soda when we go to movies, so now she’s like pounding diet Cokes.

[00:08:02] And she’s like, I love diet Coke. I’m like, that’s not good for you either. But like the branding of saying to yourself that like, this is that thing, but not as bad for you. is actually what people want. I mean, it’s just like a branded thing, but it’s just the bad thing given to you in a softer way.

[00:08:21] NO ONE: Yeah.

[00:08:22] Kyle: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I’m a very not tech savvy person and I really don’t think about technology that much, but I do think about like ever since meeting you and you kind of bringing me under your wing when I was younger was thinking about technology as like a mindset. And the idea of actually more like getting rid of technology or like thinking of it, like from the most primitive point of like, why does this exist?

[00:08:49] And I remember your slow messenger where you would bone where you could text message someone, but you don’t know when you’re getting it. And of course that seems like really simple, but it’s like this idea, like, why do you send what you send? What does it, is it like based off time? And like, How fast it can get to someone is that really what we’re trying to do here, you know I mean and I think that’s really beautiful because it’s like i’m obsessed with this guy wade davis.

[00:09:13] He’s like a um, Ethnobotanist and like anthropologist but you know He just studies like different cultures around the world and he believes in this thing called the ethnosphere, which is like the sum of all thoughts and culture And that’s what kind of creates another sphere of humanity and um I think that’s the one thing that he always talks about is like The idea of parallel technology where it’s like we create a gps system But was that necessary when we were able to read the wind?

[00:09:43] In hawaii, you know, I mean or like see these things and not have to worry about technology to like command it Like I always say like I know how to get more places in a car than my girlfriend She’s always like on google maps and she like feels insanely lost or she doesn’t have her phone but it’s like because I took the bus everywhere when I was like 18 to 25 I know how to get everywhere in LA and I don’t even drive.

[00:10:06] And it’s just the idea of like, does technology make you better? Is this enhancing your experience of life? Or is this kind of like limiting your experience of life? And um, I think you were always someone who like inspired me to think that way. But I think that’s also the way I think about the brand.

[00:10:22] It’s like thinking about that other side of like what we’re doing. It’s like, is this the real end goal of what we’re trying to produce? Is this like Is it a commodity based off of cultural kind of like vulturism? Or do we have to create the culture where people exist? And then this leads to these things connected that makes people extra excited about the product or what we do, you know what I mean?

[00:10:44] So it’s like thinking a little lateral is I think something that you really taught me really well.

[00:10:49] Julian: I want to thank you for something, which is you took me to that fucking Tom Sachs show. Yeah, you remember that? Where was that? Was that uh, Gagosian?

[00:10:59] Kyle: So that was the funniest thing about that show was um, basically Darren Romanelli, the guy who basically got me to um, you know got me basically into the industry He would tell this girl Martha at Gagosian that I was from a very rich Chinese family from China Yeah, and that we’re interested in buying a Damien Hirst painting And it was a butterfly face came out.

[00:11:25] So every time I went there, they thought I was like some rich Chinese guy from Hong Kong. Yeah, I just remember. I’m not sure if you’re there when they let me inside the rover, the Mars rover.

[00:11:34] Julian: We, we, we went up in the rover. No one was there. No one was there. Yeah, we went up in it and we’re just like, we’re fucking around with the, uh, with the dispenser that had like Jack Daniels or something in it.

[00:11:45] There was like a dental hygienist thing. I was like, what the heck

[00:11:49] Kyle: is going on here? Well, yeah, it was like a funny thing because it’s like that’s the only reason like they would give me all these books all the time And I’m just like, okay cool But it’s like this funny thing because it’s like kind of like just like a little scheme

[00:12:01] Julian: I didn’t I didn’t know that’s true.

[00:12:02] It’s amazing because I remember you’re like, hey, let’s go to this thing. We went there

[00:12:05] Kyle: Oh my god, it was insane. Like I remember where She would call me and be like, hey that butterfly painting it’s about to sell for 700, 000 but Tom Cruise really wants this like does your dad is he really down? You And we’re like, yeah, we just give it one more day.

[00:12:23] Yeah. It is like treated this like mystique about that’s

[00:12:29] Julian: amazing. Then we go

[00:12:31] Kyle: inside the Tom Sachs. Uh,

[00:12:33] Julian: yeah, whatever he wants to do, let him get in there.

[00:12:36] Kyle: It’s really funny.

[00:12:38] Julian: That’s hysterical. That, that, that told that put me on a path. Cause it’s like, I didn’t know that I didn’t really have a, I mean, I’d done some art projects, commissions, um, But I still didn’t have like a real sense that um that you about creating worlds with art in a way it was it was still very plastic and flat in my kind of engineer’s Sensibility.

[00:13:01] It wasn’t a place that it wasn’t opportunities for basically making worlds and I feel like, you know, tom sachs did it With the space program and the mars program and the rocket factory he’s like and it felt like I think because we’re We’re around the same age You That he was speaking to me as a little boy and that feeling that I had when I was a kid and I wanted to be either an astronaut or a fighter pilot, you know, it’s like you have that, you know, seven, eight, nine years old.

[00:13:29] That’s cool. That’s cool. And you chase that feeling that that’s cool feeling. And it was just such a revelation to see someone who was chasing that. That’s cool feeling. And, and taking it to this level where he’s like, I get to build worlds of things that I think is cool. And my criteria for making decisions about what kind of work I’m going to do is, is it cool?

[00:13:51] Is it going to make me smile? Is it going to make me laugh? Is it going to give me that same feeling? It’s really

[00:13:55] Kyle: simple. When I

[00:13:55] Julian: was nine years old, super simple. And I remember the other thing I want to thank you for is a couple of years ago. We were at the cafe. And I remember I was trying to make a decision about some merch I wanted to do and I asked you, I was like, you know, I was like, Kyle must know.

[00:14:11] There must be a secret formula to getting successful merch. I was like, Kyle, how do you make a decision about what kind of merch you’re going to do and how you do it? And you’re like, you said to me, it was very generous, you said, you told me, follow your instinct. And it’s almost like you should have just like taken a swig of your drink, slammed it down and walked away.

[00:14:27] Like that moment in the movie. But, um, it was, it really, that. Also open things up because there’s like someone who I admire and trust and you know, we’ve done projects together Who I was looking at for guidance was saying it’s already in you. It’s already in you

[00:14:46] Kyle: I think we like to tell the most authentic stories That make these kind of people who are really passionate about stuff feel like we’re connecting with them so I would say that’s kind of like The best way of saying is my inspiration kind of comes from cultural curiosity There’s so many things we do You Where, or that I do that kind of like intersects, but also is very diverse, right?

[00:15:12] So like, for instance, um, like I have so many different hobbies and interests where depending on what it is, it’s not just set on having a brand is like selling clothing or selling a product. It’s really the idea of exploring the cultures, communities that I’m interested in, right? So by the young age. I was really into sports growing up, for instance.

[00:15:34] It’s like, I spent all my time playing sports, loving sports, meeting friends in that world. Then you find skateboarding like everyone else, and you’re like, Oh, cool. And then you learn about punk rock and, you know, you go deeper into music. And when you start understanding identity and understanding the idea of like, individuality, you start trying to figure out how you apply that to your career, right?

[00:15:56] If that’s what we’re talking about, you know, and for me, it was. I was always told by my parents that like my stepdad, he’s like this Japanese guy who like is a dentist and he was very like funny because he would just come home work out and like cook in a George Foreman grill like a salmon like every night and it was very like one note like probably was just like some weird bachelor guy until he was like 45 and then just like met my mom and then just like Okay Yeah once told me he’s like you’re too all over the place and you’ll never succeed in life Wow I think that was always like this like driving force of Like I want to prove him wrong.

[00:16:43] Julian: Yeah,

[00:16:44] Kyle: make sense And I think through that like it definitely felt like I was going to fail high school I mean like the like lack of concentration was definitely not helping study so like even my real dad who like went to Stanford like he was kind of like Okay, like You’re not like maybe you’re not gonna do What we think you’re going to do right or you’re like need to focus but I think he always kind of entrusted me and then um I met a lot of people when I was really young that helped me on my journey to develop a creative language Um one being will right in his.

[00:17:21] Oh, yeah.

[00:17:22] Julian: Yeah. Yeah

[00:17:22] Kyle: lisa winters and they were like You These punk rock fun

[00:17:25] Julian: club. Yeah.

[00:17:27] Kyle: Yeah, they’re these punk rock girls in my high school who were like, hey You should hang out with us and make robots and that was a big thing for me because like I learned about What it is to just create? And be part of a group of a community that just want to make stuff and then seeing their parents who were very successful Well, we’ll write being the guy who created sim city video games and the sims a very successful person who didn’t really care about money or um Fame he just cared about being Interesting and like doing the things he wanted to do and I think that was really inspiring to me But there’s always been that thing in my life whether it was like, um Will or you?

[00:18:10] Um that kind of like were like little pillars where you kind of created systems where you or people made me feel like um We could Kind of do where we want it. And like the status quo wasn’t what I should be doing. And I mean, like you were a big part of me, like not going to college and like, you know, it’s funny talking about, cause like, it’s like, seems so surreal.

[00:18:35] What happened in that period of my life where I’m like, Whoa, that really did happen because there was like very destined to not be good where I’m like, okay, I’m like not in high school. I’m not. I have no plans for college. I’m doing independent study just to like end my high school career I’m trying to study film, but that’s obviously like something that’s like I’ve become like a gaffer or something But then I like got recruited to usc and then you kind of were like hey You don’t need to come to the school and my dad being with me.

[00:19:04] It was like whoa Okay, that’s cool And like that would change my life. You know, I mean in my trajectory

[00:19:11] Julian: I remember that I remember I remember I remembered like You Apologizing before I said anything. ‘cause your dad very generous. He’s like, he’s like, Hey, do you wanna, can we take you to lunch? We went to, went to the fa my favorite taqueria off of campus.

[00:19:25] Yeah. . I was like, I, it felt such, it felt like such an urgency to say it. You’re like, oh, do you wanna see my reel? And you opened up this big MacBook or whatever. And I was like, damn, he’s got a reel with practical effects in it. It, it felt like if you come here, it will ruin you. That’s what it felt like. It felt like that’s why it felt like an emergency, like.

[00:19:45] Kyle: Yeah, that was amazing. I mean, I think for someone who like, like my dad, who like, Was very educated and went to a very prestigious school hearing that Someone who’s a professor and two professors being like, hey, you know what if he goes to undergrad, that’d be a huge mistake he should just Kind of understudy under us and we’ll just kind of like keep him under Um our wing and just like support him when he needs help.

[00:20:10] I think it was a really big thing and I think that’s like You A big part of my upbringing, like was very freeing of my mind of being like, whoa, okay, maybe I have something that I did figure out and it isn’t conventional, but now we can explore it rather than being like, okay, the goal was to go to four years of college somewhere, you know what I mean?

[00:20:31] Right.

[00:20:32] Julian: I think you were, I think that was, I mean, you hear people doing that, you know, um, for whatever reason. And. Oftentimes, I’d say the majority of cases, it’s probably the parental freakout. Like the vanguard of how to learn, of ways of learning, kind of like, actually, you know what, I’m going to focus on the, the feeling.

[00:20:54] There’s a certain feeling I get when I do the work that I really enjoy. I can’t describe the feeling, but it’s like a feeling. And it probably happened to you like when you’re five or six and you’re playing with a piece of cardboard and you’re like, you know, this is cool. And you, and then you get to a point where it’s like, now you, you realize, Oh, I can chase that.

[00:21:11] And I can see what that is and see where that leads me.

[00:21:14] Kyle: I mean, I think that’s the big thing where it’s like getting recruited to USC from like Ms. Hollander, and then she saw my work and thought I was in college. So she was trying to recruit me for the grad student, the grad school program. And I’m just like, I didn’t know what it was.

[00:21:31] I was just like, cool. I’ll just show you guys what I’m doing. I flew my dad down to be like, Hey. Come here with me. I don’t know what’s happening here. And I also don’t drive. So I need you to drive me here And then i’m sitting there and just being like Okay, this is crazy. There’s a guy who like helped invent vr and then like

[00:21:49] Julian: Yeah, and I

[00:21:50] Kyle: was like kind of confused what’s happening?

[00:21:52] And then when someone asked me where’d you go to college? I was like, oh my god, the con’s over Busted Yeah, I think that was just really cool because my dad was probably like He didn’t even know that you guys thought I was in college. So he thought that was really cool. Cause he’s like, whoa, okay. They think you’re like legit.

[00:22:10] I always knew you were legit, but like, you’re getting

[00:22:13] Julian: validation, validation from, from people who have, uh, who have little letters.

[00:22:20] Kyle: And, you know, my dad had to pay that tuition, so I think he was really happy to know, like, that Greg’s son didn’t have to pay the tuition, but he got the, you know, the sign off.

[00:22:30] And then you’d have someone ask him during, like, a holiday, like, Where did your son do? It’s like, oh, well, he got recruited to USC, but he said not to go.

[00:22:37] Julian: Yeah, that’s, that’s better story. That’s a better story than like, yeah, cool. Um, can you, so, so for a lot of people who will be listening to the new future laboratory podcast, um, they may not be familiar with your trajectory, farm tactics to, to brain dead.

[00:22:56] Like what was that trajectory?

[00:22:58] Kyle: Yeah. I mean, I think at that young age, like I was trying to figure out like in high school, let’s just start there because I think that was like the beginning. Of what I’m, what I do is like meeting Will Wright and all those group of the Stupid Fun Club, which I’m not sure if anyone knows what that is, but Will Wright from EA Video Games, Maxis, like the guy who invented SimCity, he had a group called Stupid Fun Club where he basically funded his friends to basically make whatever they wanted to do in the idea that if you build a sandbox to create SimCity.

[00:23:32] a place to be creative. You’re going to create products, media, entertainment that inspires the rest of the world or becomes very successful, right? It’s like a think tank, but focus on play.

[00:23:44] Julian: I

[00:23:44] Kyle: think that was super inspiring to me being a young person, seeing not only these punk rock people, but also people who are highly intelligent.

[00:23:53] Doing really also dumb things like they would make robots that hug you They’d be making like stop motion animations where you’re like, where is this going? I don’t even know they’d be working on Anything you want to make on they didn’t look at it. Like this is worth our time. We’re not worth our time They’re just like let’s do it and that immediately, it was something that created a um, a mindset to me of kind of the freedom of like You not being limited to thinking that you cannot do whatever you want.

[00:24:25] Um, then I remember saving up my allowance and I was at Barnes and Noble and bought Matthew Barney’s Freedom Master Cycle, the book, and that kind of like evolved the idea of what I could be doing. Um, and to preface this, I was going to New York Film Academy every summer for summer school in high school.

[00:24:47] And I was taking classes, learning how to shoot film. And I was like, I want to make film no matter what, coming to LA. And Matthew Barney crew message cycle, the book was purchased when I was a senior or junior in high school. And I was like, Oh, whoa, it’s like film, but mixes like sculpture and art and design performance.

[00:25:06] And I’m like, that feels more like what I’m doing with stupid fun club, but like elevated. And I was like, there has to be a combination of this stuff, right? Where I’m like, that’s kind of where I want to be going.

[00:25:17] Julian: Yes. Because

[00:25:18] Kyle: I did have an interest in art. And then to top it on top of it, I think I got really interested in like, I used to hang out at giant robot in the mission district.

[00:25:30] Um, and my friend Derek song, who was the manager there, I would hang out with him after high school and take Bart there. And I would just spend so much time and learn about artists like Jeff McFetridge. You know all these things and then I would buy this magazine res magazine Which is all those magazine, but that was all about like music video directors and music videos and that was another added Bonus to the media side of what I was really interested in so When I came to la, yes, I I um, I left la or left the bay area.

[00:26:01] Sorry. I left high school My senior year, cause I was like, this sucks. Like I need to get out of here. Promise my dad, like, Hey, take my college tuition or whatever. Just let’s pay rent so I could have some rent to live here. But I want to go to this school and I would just want to study and then I’ll figure it out, but I’ll finish independent study.

[00:26:22] That last year myself, which is actually crazy. Cause I was so bad at school. Um, and I remember, um, yeah, basically my dad was like, like, praise and my dad and my grandpa like Kind of were beefing at the time. So my grandpa was like, hey, you know what just to prove my dad wrong He like paid for most of my tuition, I think Because he was like like whatever your dad doesn’t care like, you know all this stuff So I was really happy moved to la And at that time like I want to do music videos like spike jones, michelle gondry and all these things and um I remember going to res fest, which is jonathan wells’s res magazine like festival of like music videos, motion graphics, stuff.

[00:27:06] And they had like a Jonathan Glaser retrospective, amazing festival. And that blew my mind like, Oh, there’s actually a way that like, you don’t need to make feature films, you can make like, music videos and new media. And that was like, mind blowing to me. And that kind of opened again, the possibilities of what you can do when you’re studying film.

[00:27:26] So then I would make really bad. Like interactive art projects, like very early, like video sculptures, like from high school, I was making like video sculptures and everyone was like, what are you doing? Like, I remember, um, in high school I was in a crafts class, which is literally just to make ceramics.

[00:27:43] And it was like super stoner teacher named Mr. Fruden,

[00:27:46] NO ONE: who actually

[00:27:47] Kyle: unfortunately, but he was this guy who just were like, he looked like Thurston Moore, like ringer tee and like bowl haircut and like just probably smoked an insane amount of weed. And. I was building like weird Vaseline sculptures because I was like emulating Matthew Barney’s stuff.

[00:28:03] And he was like, yo, this is cool. So then I somehow convinced him to create this class called advanced crafts. And I was in this fake class for all my like extracurricular activities. Like to like do my like whatever to get credits. We invented this class and I was just making abstract sculptures. Like I didn’t even make a pot in ceramics in this class.

[00:28:25] I just only make like Weird Saram rap insane weird things video installations like it was so insane that I convinced him to do this but yeah, that’s how I got to graduate and That said when I came to LA I met you guys and I was doing some weird video installation and then someone at Crossroads High School One of my friends who I was hanging out with who’s like my age was like, hey I’m Like, I’m showing an art show with like, Ed Templeton, like, at Crossroads High School, you could just hide, like, curator art show, like, kid could curate an art show, but with like, insane artists, cause they’re all like, from very wealthy families, so this art show’s like, Barry McGee, Ed Templeton, all these people, and then he put a sculpture of mine, and I was like, that’s crazy, so I’m like, this is cool, so I made this like, weird video installation sculpture, and, uh, one of the moms, Celia Hollander’s mom, was like, hey, I’m a teacher at USC, I want you to go to, you know, come up and meet the team and meet the school or visit the school.

[00:29:31] And that was the beginning of, okay, now I’m kind of on a path to like, do something like, I don’t want to just make film. This interactive art, new media thing is really interesting to me. And I actually threw that, um, with Julie and you. Got to meet all these amazing people in the creative field and got to meet Jonathan Wells from Rez magazine.

[00:29:55] Yeah. And he put on my first art show I’ve ever had when I was like 20. And from there, I just started meeting all these people and getting introduced, um, around the community of creatives. And, um, I started making, window displays and like installations inside of stores, incorporating new media, sculptures, all the things I’ve been like tinkering with.

[00:30:18] And that became the beginning of being creative for money, if that makes sense. Yeah. And, um, sorry to make this a long story, but basically, when I was kind of freed up and like doing my thing, I was skateboarding in Hollywood Highland because I’d only hang out there. And I met this guy who had like a Dark Throne t shirt, which is like a black metal band, and he was selling like bootleg DVDs at this horror convention in Hollywood Highland.

[00:30:51] And I was like, you’re awesome. You sell like old boy DVDs and like Battle Royale, and that’s when like all those like, you know, extreme Asian films were coming out. And he had a booth inside of Meltdown Comics. And basically like I just hang out there every day and I met this guy Nathan Cabrera in the back and he sculpted toys did graphics and all these things for like fashion brands And I met through him and that was how I got into fashion just like being around fashion people

[00:31:24] Julian: Yeah, and so was that farm tactics at the time?

[00:31:27] Yeah,

[00:31:27] Kyle: so farm tactics was started from the idea that I was doing something for Darren Romanelli who’s like a designer and kind of like a culturalist, if that makes sense, like a culture guy who like, you know, he has an agency, but he does a lot of things like supports artists. He does a lot of like, um, curates art shows, has his own fashion brand, does a bunch of stuff creatively.

[00:31:51] But basically he, his designer was Nathan Cabrera at the time. And they asked me to, um, basically do a, a store installation for this thing he was doing, Jordan. Um, and basically I made all these like crazy, like anatomical models out of silicone by sculpting them and made like a video for it, et cetera.

[00:32:13] And that gallery that we showed at was also a fashion gallery. And this guy is called Naked Gallery. And the owner, Stephen Trestle was like, Hey, like, I love your stuff that you’re doing. Like, have you ever thought about doing a clothing brand? And I was like, uh, not really. He’s like, you should do it. I mean, that’s like a way.

[00:32:33] Like from your creativity, that’s actually a product, you know what I mean? Like you,

[00:32:37] Julian: yeah, yeah,

[00:32:38] Kyle: yeah. So somehow it came to be farm tactics and farm tactics. Um, you know, I was really obsessed with like vintage stuff at the time and like repurposing and I just started making products. And, um, I would, I didn’t drive, so basically I would bike around town with a bunch of products in my backpack and just schlock it around and literally go to stores that were like super established, like union, like there’s this store called craft at the time and I pulled up and like, Hey guys, like, like I have these products like to want to buy them and they would buy them and it was actually crazy because like,

[00:33:19] Julian: Whoa, Wait a minute.

[00:33:21] So, so, and so at what scale were you actually making the products?

[00:33:26] Kyle: I mean, I would just order like 10 at a time from this guy. Like basically he was taking like repurposed bags and putting them up and remaking them. I was just designing them and be like, Hey, like I want this vintage military bag with this pocket on it, on these things.

[00:33:39] And he would do them, but I could order like five to 25 at a time. He was like a vintage rag house, but he sewed as well. So I just gave him ideas to make a product and he would do it.

[00:33:50] NO ONE: Yeah,

[00:33:50] Kyle: and it’s pretty like Super diy by him super weird But like, you know, it kind of makes me cringe just thinking about how this went because it’s like I would hate Me going up to you know, like imagine like someone coming to your store like on a bicycle But hey, you want to buy like this?

[00:34:06] Julian: Let’s talk about that. You weren’t cocky. Let’s say I know you enough to know that you weren’t cocky You weren’t like an asshole like buy my shit or all or else but you had a certain sense of like yeah, I mean confidence plus You You know, you maybe didn’t even feel it as an audacity be like almost like why not Yeah, because you because you loved you probably you know, you loved the work at some level You thought it was it made you laugh and made you smile.

[00:34:29] It made you feel like oh, this is kind of weird But that’s cool

[00:34:34] Kyle: Yeah, there’s no sense. I mean, I think it’s just ignorance is bliss at the time of just being like All the things I was doing were kind of falling into place you know, I mean being like oh I from high school to like USC to You Meeting Jonathan Wells, having the art show, it just felt like organic

[00:34:51] NO ONE: and

[00:34:51] Kyle: it didn’t feel like I was owed anything, nor was I like, I, I was expected to do something that makes sense.

[00:35:00] NO ONE: Like

[00:35:01] Kyle: at the same time, I was like stenciling ads around town on the streets for like 50 to make money. You know what I mean? So it’s like, I felt like I could figure out how to make money and the same time do the thing that I want to do, which was make this product.

[00:35:15] NO ONE: Right.

[00:35:16] Kyle: And. I, you know, obviously was hanging around a lot in Melrose and like that area.

[00:35:20] So like I knew stores, but I would just bike up to them like, hey, buy this stuff. You know what I mean? And they’d be like, okay, cool. I’ll buy like five of these things. And they’d sell out like, I’ll buy three more of these things, five more. And it kept on growing. And I remember, um, Going to craft one time and I was like, Hey, I gotta go to the Bay area.

[00:35:37] Is there any good stores up there? And there’s a store called union made back in the day. That was like a very big menswear store. I remember it.

[00:35:43] NO ONE: Yeah.

[00:35:43] Kyle: Yeah. And like, I pulled up to you and me and this was not my friend. So this is like, not like a, Oh, I know you. So like my janky presentation, you’ll see through it.

[00:35:54] But like, this is like, I go up there. I’m like, Hey, does anyone know Todd? And he’s like, Hey, this is Todd. And that’s the owner. And I go up to him like, Hey. Um, I’m from LA, like Pete from craft told me to come here, like I have product and I pulled out of a backpack, like these, like crinkled t shirts and like bags and I lay them on the street, laid it up, like I was like selling them something like bootleg and he bought like 5, 000 worth of this product and I was like, this is actually crazy.

[00:36:25] And then. We had this like insane relationship where basically he would order so much product. It’d be like five, 10, 000, 20, 000, 30, 000. And. It was wild. And because I was there, I had all these amazing opportunities. Like I did collaborations with Levi’s. I did collaborations with, um, Beams. I did, you know, all these different projects because I was just there at Union Made.

[00:36:51] You know what I mean? And yes, yes. I didn’t know what I was doing. I was barely making clothes. Like I barely knew how to make product at this time. But I’m like running around and I didn’t drive again, so I’d either have to take a taxi or find a friend who would drive me every day. Like, different people every day to get downtown to make something.

[00:37:07] Like, it was like a show. It was like, how do I get downtown? And, um, yeah, like, it was wild.

[00:37:16] Julian: Yeah. The fact that you did it and the way you did it, to me, from, you know, like, from my association with you, it was you that the fella saw. You more than you know, he’s not saying like you’re not going up there and selling him like crap But he’s also like man this guy maybe it was the same thing.

[00:37:34] I felt when I was like do not come here Do not come here. Like yeah,

[00:37:38] Kyle: do you think about it is just like again? Like because that ignorance is bliss where I didn’t know traditional way of doing it So like you have to kind of like make it up as you go and with that ignorance you Are not afraid of failing You Does that make sense?

[00:37:55] And failure is not an option. It’s like I had to survive and farm tactics was like Really important because like in 2008 when the Crash like my dad was like, hey, you have no savings. We have no money Like we don’t have anything and like it’s pretty intense but like that’s when I got my first credit card and like maxed it out immediately just like Pay, you know, pay for product.

[00:38:22] And I, I thrived off that because you realize like money Is not the goal It’s really it’s like a game, you know, I mean, it’s like a game that you have to keep on going and play And I think

[00:38:34] Julian: more about that.

[00:38:35] Kyle: No, i’m just saying like Like my dad was very successful when I was younger and then he lost everything pretty much

[00:38:41] NO ONE: And

[00:38:42] Kyle: when he told me that he lost everything he was just kind of like look it comes and goes But like you should be grateful when you’re successful and when you’re not you should have the hunger to keep on playing the game Hell, yeah,

[00:38:54] Julian: hell, you know what

[00:38:54] Kyle: I mean?

[00:38:54] so because it’s like and that made a lot of sense to me because it was like Oh, yeah, like I don’t feel any different like when I was growing up I was just like a grimy punk skate kid and now it’s like You It’s the same shit. It’s just that they’re like There’s never gonna be a time where I’m like, you know, I know will I’ll have like be like, I’m good Like it’s okay cool Like now I have the hunger to do what I do But so far down the line with you guys and all these things where it felt like there’s little success wins in my life That I’m like, cool, this actually worked out for what I was afraid to fail at.

[00:39:30] You know what I mean? Which is what everyone thought I was going to do was fail. So I think the key is, you know, when, like I said, when it came to union made or going to these stores at that age, they’re looking at me because they understand there’s a sincerity of like, you know, this guy kind of doesn’t know what he’s doing, but that’s kind of cool because I haven’t seen a brand do that, you know what I mean?

[00:39:53] They haven’t, like, I don’t have the thing where I’m like, Hey, I’m going to. Pack this, um, this line sheet. I’m gonna have all these things for you. And it looks like very like Obvious and traditional and they’d be like, okay, cool. I’ll put on the side, but now When they saw me it was just or when they saw me then it was just like oh, yeah, whatever dude Yeah, cool.

[00:40:14] Like I’m down. This is insane and like they like that

[00:40:18] Julian: Yeah

[00:40:19] Kyle: Like I think it’s harder as you scale and I always tell my team that it’s like now there’s definitely things like You As we grow our team, you create these systems and it gets more professional and more legit and normal. And I think sometimes I’m always trying to figure out how to break that.

[00:40:35] Like there’s certain things you need to be organized and like run the business right. But there’s other things where you have to remember that DIY ethos and be like, Hey, like what are the things that we’re trying to achieve? And one of the things that we’re forgetting about from when we started year one, right?

[00:40:55] Like and then that’s the key is like figuring out that feeling like you’re saying that made you really happy when you started And making the first thing and remembering that and it’s not always about growth but growth will happen just the way it’s always happened for me in my life where it’s like It’s through that flow state if that makes sense of like doing things where you’re flowing and you’re like, oh, this feels good This feels good.

[00:41:17] Cool. Now. This is the next thing. Oh, that’s great. And I could visualize three steps ahead of like What will make me happy? You know what I mean? Like if I think about something right now, I’m like, Hey, I have this shoe launch and then I want to open this store here and I’ll visualize what that looks like in my head.

[00:41:33] Like, okay, cool. And that will lead to this. And the web is already created or the, the, like the map of like the future of two years and like, what would excite me? And I’m like, okay, cool. Let’s do it. I mean, like, well, we have that money. Will we do this thing? It’s like, I think there’s always in my head, always a potential for things.

[00:41:53] It’s not about limiting the thing. I also think it’s like, even for a founder, I think the responsibility of other people. And, you know, I’d say the expectations also lead to like a. Dilution of that feeling sometimes because you’re responsible for so many people and you know, if you hit it wrong or you’re following your instinct, the liability is higher, right?

[00:42:20] And then you, everyone wants to say the things they want to say, which is great and valid, but it’s also like making sure that, you know, you understand like, hey, this is the real goal that we’re all trying to achieve, you know? So,

[00:42:34] NO ONE: yeah,

[00:42:34] Kyle: we’re 10 years now into brain dead. And, um, it’s really interesting. You know, we’ve had partners come and go, you know, Mike, the guy I found it with is no longer, but I feel like it’s stronger than ever because I think the ethos feels very connected to what we’re trying to achieve.

[00:42:51] And we’ve expanded the mindset back to like what it was, but like in a more higher ceiling version of it, if that makes sense, like a more, like there’s a little more like wiggle room to build. the cultural aspect of the brand rather than the idea of where it started from. Because in the beginning we were just making t shirts and like, publications and being part of like the art book fair and you know like, that kind of like more DIY perspective.

[00:43:18] But now we’re doing, we have a movie theater and we’re doing things with like, massive companies. But it’s not that we’re just doing these things to be bigger, or like scaling bigger. More mainstream, I think we’re just playing in a different ballpark, you know what I mean? Playing in a different sandbox where there’s a larger amount of real estate that we can storytell.

[00:43:40] Julian: So yeah, I’m glad you mentioned storytelling because I was, um, I was, uh, working on a deck and in this deck I was, it started like, it’s kind of inverted. Um, because I’m going to, I’m trying to figure out now that my, uh, my kind of early collaborators in near future laboratory left. Not a bad thing. They left.

[00:44:02] And I think a part of that is that I was trying to understand what it was that I’m trying to build. And. Uh, you know, I’ve, I’ve a lot of trouble doing these like kind of, kind of pitch decks. It’s just such a pain in the butt. Cause it’s like the structure and like, blah, blah, blah. And so I just started with an, with a, uh, one slide that’s got an image of a whole bunch of kind of art groups, organizations, brands, I guess you could say businesses.

[00:44:30] And I was staring at it and just kind of pushing these little logos around. And I, it just kind of, it kind of came to me as like a modest epiphany. It’s like, what all of these do. Is there, they’re building a world into which people can kind of immerse themselves. So on there was, um, uh, Tom Sachs, um, uh, Meow Wolf, Teenage Engineering, um, Braindead, and A24.

[00:45:02] I think it was five or six of them. And there’s something about, like, I’ve got a, like, kind of deep affinity for those. You know, when you see them, what the feeling it gives me and, um, there was, and so there’s something about that, that I think is like a common, it’s almost like a, um, it feels like so vital to have these kinds of.

[00:45:26] Organizations with opportunities, I guess, you know, you could put, you could put Disney on there. It didn’t make it on my list, but I, but I have, I have Walt Disney’s kind of map that he made of like what the business would be like on the wall, just as a kind of like symbol.

[00:45:39] Kyle: I think that’s the ultimate DNA of all these companies is like Disney where like, you know, back in 50s, 60s, like he created before everyone.

[00:45:48] Right. And like, whether, you know, the giant is what it is. I think it is what it is. It’s like, that’s the scale you can get to with this kind of business model. But very few people, um, use that model now because it’s so abstract or they think it’s just like, how can I be like Disney? When you say like, I want to be Disney, that means something different to a lot of people.

[00:46:10] Like it means it’s like, Oh, so you just want to be a multi, you know, media conglomerate, like monopoly. I’m like, no, it’s that when Disney looked at his product, he knew where he started from And he knew storytelling was the most important thing, but storytelling wasn’t to make more films, it was to build worlds, and I think he’s a really amazing person, because before him, or after him even, there wasn’t, like, licensing was like not a thing, like, he created a world where he was like, I’m gonna make a toy right after, based off this movie, he was like, I’m gonna make the greatest movie, , right?

[00:46:47] And then he was like, the characters are so strong in this world that you want to have this in your life. You know what I mean? There wasn’t a product connected to it. It was like the product was like a, a token from how good his art was, that you can actually, it’s like having an artist print. It’s like if I got a John Sari print because I can’t afford the sari, like that’s not like a.

[00:47:14] Bad product. It’s like, hey, this is what I can take away with, you know what I mean? Because I love his art and I want to support it. And I think that’s what Disney really does create. And, um, I always say when you go to Disneyland, you’re not like, you don’t go there thinking that you’re there to consume.

[00:47:32] But at the end of the day, you want something to take away from your experience or you want to enhance your experience. Like you’ll just go there to buy a pair of ears. just to be there and feel like you’ve experienced it the best way possible. And you’re not going to wear those ears outside of being at those parks.

[00:47:49] So think about that. It’s like you buy the thing to go back to the thing for, you know what I mean? It’s kind of crazy.

[00:47:55] Julian: Yeah. How, how does that sensibility integrate into like what you’re into the brain dead vibe?

[00:48:03] Kyle: Yeah, I think that’s exact same thing. I think like in 2019, I like identified that. And then I also identified, I did a TV show for Red Bull.

[00:48:12] And the way someone explained the Red Bulls mentality was that Red Bull sells one product, which is the drink. And the idea of it is that It goes beyond that one product that you think of, which is media, sports, all these things, because the overarching idea is that Red Bulls give you wings, right? Red Bull gives you wings, and whatever that means can jump into any type of genre, any part of like, culture, or sport, or music, and it’s so simple.

[00:48:45] But like, For brain, for branded, it’s like, okay, what do we do? We sell t shirts and then we do books. And it’s like very like, quote unquote, check off the boxes for like cool brand. Right. It’s like, this is what all the cool brands are doing. You know what I mean? And then I’m like, I hate that stuff because again, like, I don’t want to feel like I’m part of a conventional system.

[00:49:05] Like I want to figure out like, what’s there more, what’s more. And, um, once I thought about Disney and I thought about Red Bull, I was like, Oh, Brandon could be all these other things. And that was the expansion. And I don’t mean product. I meant the idea that we had to open our minds to embracing culture, not as a, uh, nostalgic reference point, if that makes sense.

[00:49:29] But culture as a place of being a playground where people can create their own identities and play. Right. So like, if You are a Stussy fan, for instance, or you’re a fan of certain brands. Usually they’ll look back and be like, okay, I remember seeing Stussy when I was younger, or, oh, Stussy guys were really cool in the nineties and the eighties, and they had these cool musicians or, um, you know, like if you think about fashion, fashion’s just emulation of a culture, like they’re not, like, they’re not creating culture.

[00:50:06] They’re like being like, oh, this is inspired by like, you know, the 70s beatnik, you know, 60s beatnik periods, and this is what all the clothes look like, and then you’re kind of dressing like that era. Brandon’s about contemporary culture. It’s about culture that exists now and the subcultures and mainstream cultures and the reference points that people identify themselves with and not taking from the idea like, Oh, I see a lot of people wearing these things, but more like, Hey, you like magic, the gathering, you like art house films, you like this music.

[00:50:39] You also like fashion. We play within these structures and these, like, Genres an authentic approach and none of them are used to like Push an agenda for the other one to be like, oh you like magic. So, uh, you know, that’s in our runway show like, you know It’s like yeah, we do make product of that but product like disney when you when you leave disneyland you grab the t shirt as a token that you Love the experience and braided is an experience, you know I mean is an experience of culture where you are like, hey, I went to the movie theater I need that Fairfax t shirt because I really love being here and this represents who I am because you know I see your animations before your the movies you play good movies, but oh cool I also like got to eat some of your food back, you know in the back area of the cafe And I think that’s really important.

[00:51:36] You know, is that You There’s a responsibility for creating new culture, not just taking from old culture. Salsha’s not always bad. I don’t want to like talk bad about it. And I mean, I think it’s always has a place, but I think there’s also a sense of like culture vulturing that happens instead of trying to like support What’s happening now or like figuring out like underserved people or people who don’t have a voice and kind of creating product for them in a higher level, right?

[00:52:06] So, like, you know, we started off the company making T shirts, but all the stores we sold to were traditionally more menswear stores when I first started. So it was at Mohawk, you know, a lot of the stores that we sell now that I bring up. It’s like. They didn’t have graphic t shirts, like a store like Goodhead in London didn’t want to carry Brandon because it didn’t have graphic t shirts.

[00:52:26] And now they have a lot of graphic t shirts and Dover street has a whole section of t shirts, but these people were traditionally just fashion. And I think the thing about the way I proposed it was, Hey, we want to create a brand or a brand. It’s a brand where it’s like, you know, when you go see a post punk band or you see, you know, a hardcore band, you wear the t shirt of that music.

[00:52:47] And like brain dead’s a t shirt that represents the culture of art design movies all these things And 10 years ago that was kind of like not thought about you know, I mean as much so it’s easy to pitch that

[00:53:00] NO ONE: and

[00:53:01] Kyle: People were like, oh I get that I get that it’s not streetwear, huh? I’m like, no, it’s not streetwear It’s it’s like a different thing because they knew me more from my other brands And they didn’t see me as someone who was like a streetwear guy.

[00:53:10] So like they’re like, oh, yeah, we love farm taxes We love access folk technology like yeah, we’ll carry this So We came in from a, again, like a very left field way and approach where people saw us differently. And I think as you grow, you always have that problem. Be like, Oh, Brandon, it’s true. We’re brand.

[00:53:26] And you’re like, I guess I don’t mind that terminology, but I think the key is, is like, it really isn’t. It’s just that we make product that has graphics and we do stuff in culture, but like a good cultural brand should be a lifestyle brand. Would you call Disney a streetwear brand? Cause they make graphic t shirts.

[00:53:44] You know what I mean? Or a pair, probably not. So I think the key is, is like, to me, like, um, the big difference or nine difference, I don’t want to say we’re, we’re no different than other companies, but the thing that we try to strive is like, understand that the product in itself that we are creating is a cultural experiential product.

[00:54:12] So it’s things that Can be getting a movie ticket. It could be Buying a pair of jeans Whatever we make needs to tell a story and you probably know like the stuff that we make It’s not like it follows one thread where it’s like, Oh, you’re, you know, Oh, you guys like skateboarding and then you got to wear baggy jeans.

[00:54:32] Because that’s what everyone has this hat and the shirt needs to be really baggy. You know, this is the trend of what’s happening now. Okay, now we have to follow this other trend. It’s like, we make 300 salvage denim, if not more. And then we also sell like a Godzilla sofubi toy. And then we’re releasing Magic the Gathering cards.

[00:54:49] And then we have a tennis racket coming in. And yeah, all three months, you know, I mean, and it’s just like, it’s like, It’s seems like it’s totally chaotic, but at the same time, to me, it’s like just building those pillars that we always will continue to grow over the next 10 years.

[00:55:05] Julian: Yeah, it feels like one of those things where the when you say chaotic, there’s something beautiful about chaos, you know, like in the sense of like, it’s something coming into, uh, Yeah.

[00:55:17] You know, kind of coming into focus in a way when someone says like that doesn’t make sense to me It there’s there’s one aspect of it where it’s like they’re kind of dismissing what you’re saying like that’s stupid But there’s another aspect where it’s like it hasn’t made sense yet. It hasn’t made sense yet.

[00:55:32] It’s coming It’ll come and give it a minute it’ll come into focus and you’ll start seeing like that there are relationships between the tennis racket the salvage denim and the you know in the in the t shirt Or the hat, you know, or the, whatever it is that, that by those elements kind of being arranged in this way defines the, the thing that makes sense, which, you know, in this case we’re talking about his brain dead, or it could be like, well, I

[00:55:59] Kyle: think it’s exactly what, um, you know, if I meet someone and I meet you and I’m like, Oh, I see in your, in your, Your bookshelf, you like these books and then I see your movie shelf.

[00:56:12] You like this and you might have all these video games everywhere. I’m like, Oh, and then you also have all these board games. And then you have, you know, in your kitchen, you have all this, you have a really nice espresso machine. You’re like, Oh, cool. I have a lot to talk about with this person. That’s like, he has a lot of interests.

[00:56:28] Julian: That’s amazing.

[00:56:28] Kyle: Awesome, man. Thank you. All right. Thanks, buddy.

[00:56:35] Julian: Thank you. It was super fun. Super fun. I’m glad we got to finally do it. And, uh,

[00:56:41] Kyle: well, let’s get together in person soon.

[00:56:43] Julian: I want to do that for sure. Definitely. And there’s some books I want to introduce you to. Oh yeah. I’m going to talk more about that dinner thing.

[00:56:49] Kyle: Oh my God. I didn’t tell you this. You know, that crazy dude, the like, like never die guy who’s

[00:56:54] Julian: the never

[00:56:55] Kyle: die guy. Never got the guy. Who’s like, don’t die. He’s like that weird dude. Like billionaire guy who lives like West side. Oh

[00:57:02] Julian: yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:04] Kyle: Dude. That dude invited me to one of his dinners.

[00:57:06] Julian: Really? What did you go

[00:57:09] Kyle: I have to go you gotta go It’s so he like dm’d me on instagram.

[00:57:13] Is that like

[00:57:14] Julian: random? Is that totally random? Do you have like a connection to him?

[00:57:17] Kyle: So random like I thought it was like a con and then he like dm’s like I love brain dead like You gotta come to one of my don’t die dinners and i’m like, oh, yeah i’m like Okay, i’m like He’s like, where do you live? I’m like los angeles.

[00:57:30] Hey, cool. Here’s my email My assistant’s gonna reach out and like make sure you make it to one of these things That’s like I’m like that guy. He’s so funny. But I just love the idea. I was just thinking about dinner. I was like that dinner must be so stinking insane. How do you not die?

[00:57:48] Julian: Well report back.

[00:57:49] Let me know how that goes.

[00:57:50] Kyle: Oh my god, if I do go to that thing, it’s so crazy. Um, cool, bud. We’ll hit me up later.

[00:57:55] Julian: Okay, that’s that. Remember, head over to Detroit dot imagines harder dot com and get yourself on the application list for our Imagine Harder Summit this fall. Become a supporter of the podcast and discord and all the things by joining me over on patreon.

[00:58:12] com slash near future laboratory Every patreon annual professional subscription gets all four of the design fiction books in the shop right now for free Sounds like a great deal to me. All right, stay hydrated. I’m Julian and I’m out!